Why Solar Developers Pay a Gate Fee When They Could Profit Instead ft. Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai | Soliverse Ep. 45

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0:00Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: For us, it was like, okay, there's a huge pile of material with a lot of interesting elements to need aluminum, copper, glass, silver, silicon. And then the question was, okay, how can I extract that? How can I create value instead of making it a costly problem? And that is exactly like what we do.

0:17Peter Pongracz: That is Dr. Jan Philipp, my CEO and co-founder of solar materials. Most solar developers still treat end-of-life panels as a disposable cost, but he believes that's the wrong way to look at it. Hidden inside of those panels are valuable materials that could turn a future liability into a huge profit opportunity.

0:39Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Right now, the silver installed in the global installation is roughly 110 billion euros to just the silver part sitting globally. And last year we added like 30 billion euros to that. And year by year we would add like 10, 20 billion more. This is something that at some point then will be this big opportunity to tap into.

1:00Peter Pongracz: Today he breaks down how billions of euros of materials are accumulating inside the world's solar fleet. Why most of the industries unprepared for what's coming, and how recycling could become one of the most important business opportunities in solar. I'm Peter Pongras, and this is Soliverse. Can we define the main business operations or the main problem that you guys are solving?

What problem is Solar Materials actually solving?

1:30Let's explain that to a five-year-old because we are in a niche of a niche of a niche. So we are in the solar business, but we are also in the niche part of the solar modules and the recycling part thereof. So I think maybe if we can discuss that and then we will jump a little bit deeper into different segments.

1:48Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: If you really would like to frame it a problem, it's like there's a lot of waste coming from solar. I mean, if you travel through the country or through Europe, you see all this large solar farms and solar parks. And at some point you ask yourself the question, okay, what happens like when they reach end of life, when they get damaged, when whatever?

2:07Like what do you do with all this stuff sitting around? And then the picture what you have in your head is okay, there will be a huge pile of waste, and then it will be, I don't know, landfill, burn. So then it's the question, okay, how can I really make a useful case of this opportunity rather than the problem? And so for us, it was like, okay, there's a huge pile of material with a lot of interesting elements you need: aluminum, copper, glass, silver, silicon.

2:37And then the question was, okay, how can I extract that? How can I create value instead of making it a costly problem? And that is exactly like what we do. We take the waste from the parks or from the households and extract the value to bring it back to the local economy. In a nutshell, that that's a business case with a focus on silver.

How is silver extracted from solar panels and what makes this process different?

2:59Peter Pongracz: Okay, so there there are many many components to that, and uh we can probably start with the silver part. So in a normal case, right, the silver is about 0.1% of the weight of the panel, right? So and and and I assume during recycling, there is quite a lot of waste as well. What separates your process from the other processes out there of, let's say, the silver recycling?

3:24Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: So traditionally, like when you are a recycling company, what you would what would you use? It's like a shredder. Yeah. I mean, you are used to shredding and sorting stuff. That's the the traditional recycling business. But when it comes to, as you said, like 0.1 and below percentage of weight of silver, like how to extract that. I mean, how to find this needle in the hay if you have like just a big shredder pile of solar panels.

3:47And so this technology wasn't the right solution for this task. And this is then how we developed the process to say, okay, what do we need to do in order to extract the silver from the solar panels? And this is how we then developed our layer-by-layer process, and then really being able to have a silver fraction, which then can be used for refineries to extract fine silver.

4:10You need to have a certain fraction of silver inside to make it really useful for the following processes. And that is then the key and the essential how to concentrate the silver in this kind of product. Right now, we are in the range of, I would say, 60, 70, 80% of the total silver, depending on the different cell technologies. It's a huge recovery rate.

4:34So it's not like just the percent or something, it's really like significant amounts, of course, then depending on different technologies, because sometimes there is silver on the back and the front and whatsoever. And that also makes explains a little bit like the RD we are doing. So I mean, if we now add 70-80%, 30% to go until we reach 100. So that is the goal.

4:53That's what we do with the RD team then.

Will newer solar modules still contain materials worth recycling?

4:55Peter Pongracz: How should one imagine the the composition of the newer modules? Because obviously there is a lot of material science behind it. There is this race to you know use less precious metals in the modules, right? So do you see a tendency or a trend that less and less precious materials will be used in the newer modules, or or there will always be something that could be of value that could be extracted later as well?

5:22Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: So of course, there's not just silver, you have silicon, you have aluminum, you have copper. So that is also worth extracting, and that is also something we can make a very profitable business with. But nevertheless, if you just maybe recycle copper and aluminum because it's easy to recycle, you're missing critical elements for the supply chain, for like the security of supply.

5:46So you need to go also for the extra mile to get the critical stuff out of there. And when it comes to the panel itself, I mean, over time, of course, you try to reduce the material consumption per watt peak because you try to lower costs, so you try to use less silicon, less silver, less aluminum. So what are we seeing? Aluminum frames are getting thinner, the modules are getting bigger, the silver consumption drops, the wafers are getting thinner.

6:10So, like you have all these effects trying to reduce the consumption per watt. But on the other side, modules are getting bigger, so from 200 to 150 watt to 400 to 500 watt. So the total silver consumption per module still is the same, which is also one of the references we use. And on the other hand, the just the numbers of installations, I mean, they keep keep growing and growing every year.

6:35Like last year we had like 600 gigawatt of new solar being deployed. And that is then still, even if you reduce the silver consumption to a what peak, just with the amounts, this total silver consumption for solar increases over years. So that is still like the the our mind is getting bigger and bigger from day by day.

6:54Peter Pongracz: The market essentially balances it off, right? And as you mentioned, and and from my perspective as well, the especially the utility scale is getting bigger and bigger and bigger every year, which is an interesting motion as well across Europe as well, but mostly outside of Europe. So it's definitely a trend that is going to continue in the in the near future.

Is the world heading toward a silver supply crisis because of solar?

7:15And uh, when it comes to the actual silver consumption, let's say let's let's switch to the kind of production side of silver, let's say this year or last year. So we have about what 10% of global silver goes into solar, so that's quite a large number, and solar is actually still scaling globally as well. What would that look like? Like, are we going to be consuming all the silver in like maybe 20 years in solar or or how how would that work out?

7:46Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: I think that just taking like the climate goal which you have, saying, okay, by 2050, whatsoever we want to be climate neutral or we want to have a share of I don't know, 30, 40 percent of solar in the total energy sector. So that brings you to a certain level where you know, okay, if I have reached this point, from then that point onwards, if there wouldn't be any more growth, I would just to have to replace millions of tons year by year, just like just to keep the system running.

8:16And from that point onward, you wouldn't consume any more silver. If we would have this track, and if you look at the story numbers, so it's 10% now, 15% already, 20%. So there will be a kind of bottleneck and gap. And that is also the need why companies are working on how to reduce silver further or how to replace silver, even with copper, it's a it's a trend or something they're looking into.

8:40So silicon solar cells with silver connectors will maybe not be the dominant technology in 20 or 30 years from now on. So there will be a shift. And then it's maybe about copper or about perovskite or about I don't know what what else is coming there. But this is also what we are doing with the RD team, looking into like what is next. But the good thing is if you really deploy it now, it needs 20 years to come back a large volume.

9:09So we have a lot of time to prepare. Perovskite, I mean the tundant cells, which are still based on silicon, will be most likely the next big thing, also on mass production. Then you have to deal with how to recycle the perovskite, contains lead, which is a different problem. So for us, it's then just a new challenge. But the materials are there and then the volumes are there.

How much solar panel waste is actually being recycled globally right now?

9:30Peter Pongracz: Just to paint a global picture, do you have any data on what is actually being recycled today per year in terms of tons or or uh whatever the metric would be globally?

9:43Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: First of all, but the metric, like depending on whom we talk to, they either calculate in tons or megawatt or pieces. So depending on that, right now I would say globally you have maybe a total solar panel waste stream of 100,000 tons. Rough numbers, which would also not take like the relation now for granted, be in the age in the range of maybe one gigawatt of solar being replaced year by year.

10:14Which is very, very small if you just think of okay, we have installed 600 gigawatt alone last year. And now the waste volumes we see are maybe one gigawatt, two gigawatts, ten gigawatts at a maximum. So the really huge wave is still a couple of years ahead, but then it quickly scales into this volume. So I looked up two numbers which I presented to our board last week, and this is that right now the silver installed in the global installation is roughly 110 billion euros to just the silver part sitting globally.

10:51And last year we added like 13 billion euros to that, and year by year we would add like 10, 20 billion more. So this is something that at some point then will be this big opportunity to tap into.

The €110 billion silver stockpile sitting inside the world's solar fleet

11:05Peter Pongracz: If we imagine the graph right, the wave is backloaded because you know we meaningfully started installing large quantities around from 2000s, but let's say 2005, 2010. And what is coming back now is probably the ones that were installed like in the maybe even 90s, 2000s, besides you know, like the projects that went wrong in terms of like needing retrofit, etc.

11:29But the big wave is coming, is still behind us, so that's going to reach us soon, right?

11:36Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Exactly. So I would say that at least by 2030, we will see like millions of tons per year coming back to recycling. So it's not super fun future for years. There's not that much time, especially like if you need to build up capacity, and that also the big fashion regarding the timing which we had before. Like, of course, as a recycler, you try to hit this perfect timing, to have your capacity up and running when there will be a huge demand of there.

12:01But again, that's really depending then on what is the reasons why the panels are coming back. And it's really the end of life. Is it like extreme weather events, like hail, storm, floods, everything that's connected to climate change? Then on the other side, you have maybe this large utility scale installations where it's about the return of investment and profits.

12:21So maybe they revamp repower much sooner than expected. And that's, for example, something we see when the grid is operating at the maximum capacity. It's hard to maybe get the new installation, but you can use the old installation, repower them, combine them with battery storages, and then you have the new park. So then it's also another cost driver than not waiting until they've reached end of life, but until maybe 15 years and then you to try to replace.

12:49So this is hard to hard to model and really hard to understand and put into numbers because there are so many different factors, not only from, as I said, like what's the reason why the panels are coming back, it's also then influenced by the regulation, by tax incentives, by geopolitical conflicts, by trade hurdles. So that is, I mean, if you really want to put that into a global model, good luck with that.

13:16But at least you can try to regionally understand, okay, what's the key driver of solar panel waste in Europe or in the US or in Japan, China, India, whatever. That's something can understand, but you really have to model it like country by country.

13:29Peter Pongracz: Yeah, and it's especially even in Europe, right? Like we are trying to be unified, but we still have different regulations across different markets at different times. I personally hope you know that this whole Iran conflict will put a little bit more wind in our sail and help us push it a little bit faster, you know, forward and in terms of electrification, renewables, and solar.

13:50But again, typically we are not the fastest moving continent out there, right?

13:54Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: I think that if sometimes maybe we are not the fastest ones when it comes to implementing and building stuff. But when we are ready to go, what we build is quite robust and quite long-lasting. So um then it's like really a solid decision. Say, okay, I will now put uh huge effort into building what kind of industry or cluster whatsoever. Sometimes it's very slow, but in the end, I think if the move is right, and I mean, compared just to the people living in Europe and the European Union, it's a huge market.

14:29We can do a lot of stuff if we really unify the market economy. Then there's a lot of strength we could foster. And as you said, like with all the crisis going on, also to be open direct to you, we as a company benefited from all those crises. When COVID started, or when COVID happened, so to speak, there was the security of supply, supply and shade are coming under pressure, people getting aware okay, if there's no ship coming anywhere with material, my production has to be shut down.

14:58So they're trying to scratch material together from every angle what they could. Then the Russian, uh Russian attack on the Ukraine, where you had the energy crisis following. Now with Iran again, people are getting aware and say, ah, yeah, there was something with oil and gas. Maybe we should install my solar. So of course, that usually gives a kind of small tush and boom again, but it's still like for a business model of quite beneficial.

15:24Peter Pongracz: Of course, we we are learning from our own mistakes. And you know, one piece of data that kind of stuck with me from the conference about two weeks ago is that you know, there is 400 gigawatts of projects stuck in Q. So that's uh that's a massive number. And and imagine if we would magically be able to install all of that capacity in one year, then we would actually meet all the climate goals by um you know 2030 easily, right?

15:52But it's unfortunately not the case. And now we we are seeing this problem of like the grid being the major bottleneck, and also flexibility is becoming more and more difficult both on the production and consumption side as well. So you know we are living in interesting times.

16:07Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: That's a pretty good example, and and I have the ex same sentence uh also in my notes because like it's it's really like everything is there, everything is already built and installed. So that's just one example, but we are just standing in our own way to get things moving. It's not that we are not able to build it, it's not because the money is not there, it's like it just sitting there and we are just standing in our own ways by finding the right forms.

How do the economics of solar panel recycling actually stack up?

16:29Peter Pongracz: Yeah, and that's uh that's a tricky place to be in. If we come back to the recycling part, maybe let's put a price tag on the whole recycling uh operation, right? So, first of all, currently it's not mandatory, right? So it's it's encouraged for project developers and EPCs to allocate a certain percentage of their budgets to the recycling, but it is not mandatory.

16:52I guess the mandatory part will come at a later point. How do the numbers stack up?

16:58Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: When we started looking into the business case back in 2021, or when we founded the company, the recycling fee, the gate fee was around 150, 120, up to 200 euros per ton of panels, so roughly three to four euros per panel, which you had to pay as a gate fee to recyclers plus the transfer costs, and then plus the decommissioning on side. And of course, what the big solar parks put into their books is a much smaller number.

17:32So it wouldn't match because what they assumed is in the beginning, okay, 20 years from now, prices will have dropped, there will be a lot of solutions, so it will be sheep, and then it's not not a big deal. But then reality hits, and then you come to the point of saying, oh it's costing a lot of money. So on the other side, if it's costing a lot of money, people try to find other solutions.

17:55So you try to look into okay, what else is there? Instead of bringing it to the recycling side, I could maybe sell it as a used good and then it just disappears because I sold it to another uh buyer. And what happens then is that those panels are exported to third countries. So it's just illegal waste shipment. It's nothing else. But you reduce the costs.

18:20When the volumes are small, nobody cares. I mean, if if you're talking about a few truckloads, maybe, or but I don't know, nobody really cares because it's not really a big problem. But if the volumes are increasing and people start looking, and then you ask the right questions, they come up, okay, we need another solution. Then we figured out if we really want to foster that solution, independent of any regulatory pressure or any tax or any any any legal uh laws, we have to provide a better solution.

18:49And that means being able to drop the gate fee at least to zero, or even say there's value inside, and I give you something back for your panels, so that it becomes from cost position into a profit center. And that essentially then makes a difference for us to being able to say, okay, we can bring with the extraction rates we have, with the value we create, we can give something back to say, okay, the gate fee is dropped, or you see my profit.

19:17And that of course that changes in the discussions. Because if you have to decide, do I want to pay or do I want to go some shady ways just to reduce the cost, or do I want a fully compliant way where I can also get the money back? Yeah, it's easy. Then it's uh a really good discussion with our customers.

Why making recycling profitable is the only way to stop illegal waste exports

19:35Peter Pongracz: Yeah, and that's uh I think that's also a tricky step to take, right? Because if you don't have any like regulatory support on that front, if it's meaning it's not mandated or it's not enforced, then then it's uh a little bit more difficult, as you mentioned. You know, if somebody comes to you and says, okay, I will pay you one euro for your panel, it's it's a it's not a not a difficult choice, right?

19:56Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: I think that from my own history as an entrepreneur, what I've learned over the years is that if you really want to build a sustainable business model, also with a sustainable cost, you have to make it profitable. I mean, there are a lot of green ideas which are super costly. I mean, they're super green, they're very nice in terms of like the overall impact.

20:17But if nobody's willing to pay, or if nobody really can pay because it's too expensive, take air travel as an example. Of course, you can buy like a sustainable aviation fuel. Yeah, but then your ticket price would be, I don't know, instead of 500 euros going to the US or China, it's like 5,000 euros. And so the the question was like, how can I make this like cheap, cost-effective, and just for customer a kind of win-win situation?

20:42Peter Pongracz: Yeah, and I mean, you know, what I think we often forget in solar or renewables is that we first need to build viable business models and the rest will take care of itself, right? We we can talk about ideology and and and you know, like the the whole idea of why we are doing this, but if the maths don't add up, it's not going to be a long-term solution.

21:05A great example is, you know, like as we mentioned, we were chatting, you know, in the US, like in Texas, they install more solar than California right now, and they don't care if it's oil or renewables or whatever the case might be, it just makes financial sense. And I think if we are able to build these types of models into the whole economy, then it will eventually become self-feeding and we will reach those goals that we need to reach.

21:29Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: I think also like when you look back at the German solar industry during the first boom, everything was there, everybody was like a lot of money, but then people forgot that okay, this profit is coming from the incentive scheme of the German government, like being able to say, okay, I make it a profitable business case because I guarantee you for I don't know how many years this amount of money.

21:51Everybody understood if that is a good business case with the incentives. Maybe it's not a business case anymore if the incentive drops. So I have to be more cost effective. And this is then when China took up the lead role saying, okay, I can make production cheaper than you. I buy the same equipment from your German suppliers, but I can produce at a lower cost margin here.

22:10And then it's just about the money. And in the end, it's really also when you look back at the Renaissance, which they tried in Europe to establish solar kind of manufacturing again. Of course, if I can choose between like a European-made product or Chinese product, I would try to buy local. Yes. But in the other, on the other side, if I'm a private household, I have a limited budget, and there's the difference of, I don't know, 30%.

22:34Maybe I cannot just pay it. And then I have to go for the for the cheapest or for the most cost-effective solution because the quality is the same. And then I just buy it from a Chinese producer and it's completely fine. And I think that's a reality. And sometimes the discussion we had in Solar was like, how do I build a fence against China because they are like hurting our business?

22:55Yeah, make your business more cost effective or make it more innovative. So maybe that's a new opportunity to say, okay, if there's a tandem technology coming out with Peroskite, and we really master how to produce that already in the beginning on scale for low costs, that's another chance we have. But not like trying to compete with what's already in the market that's not gonna work.

How should Europe compete with China in solar manufacturing?

23:19Peter Pongracz: Yeah, for sure. And and you know, I I've been chatting with people about the same question quite a lot. And the only conclusion we've ever come to is like we either apply some sort of tariffs, right? Which we won't, or yeah, we try to license some sort of you know manufacturing technology from China and and kind of work together and try to build something that at least would meet our own needs, right?

23:42And maybe maybe your your suggestion of the new technology being mastered would be the right solution, but it's not uh not an easy problem to solve.

23:50Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: No, no, and and and also I'm not against tariffs. I think that if you use this instrument wisely and you try to protect a player which is already in the market, but who needs time to adapt to new technologies, I mean, take Germany as an example in the automotive industry. So we had to master like from a combustion engine to an electric uh engine. And that is still a painful process for a lot of the players here.

24:14And of course, as a as a country, as a government, you try to protect your players until they are fit enough to have transformed that at the cost into then being a profitable uh new business model again for them building electric cars. And I think that is something you you still have to take in mind to say, okay, at some point Terrace could be helpful to not protect the status quo, but to protect the companies or the players to being really innovative in their field until they've solved the issue to say, okay, there's something new coming up, but I need at least a couple of years to adapt my whole production from this to that.

24:51And then it's a different story. And then, of course, you have to drop the tariffs and incentives again step by step. But that is also part of the political uh reality.

25:01Peter Pongracz: And hopefully by that point your industries have matured, right? I read a book the other day about, you know, they just gave two examples of protectionist policies, and without mentioning a country, one was the US and one was China. But basically, the the funny anecdote was that the US was much more protectionist than China, you know, and they managed to protect the industries until the industries became more competitive, and then of course, then you can go and start export as well, which is a big challenge.

25:30Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Yes, and I think that's also for solar. I think there's still room for um innovation. And I think also in the US are doing a lot of things right. So if we sometimes do not want to acknowledge that. But when it comes to like really focusing on industries, and as you said, with with Texas as an example, the mentality behind is different, and they just venture then into what is good for the economy and what is good for the business.

25:56And then they try to build a kind of fence in order to make it even better, more robust. And in the end, it has proved quite successful in most of the industries.

26:07Peter Pongracz: Maybe, maybe a food for food there, you know. Maybe maybe there is something we could learn as well.

26:11Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Yeah, but also, I mean, I think we also talked about that. Like, if you have the Trump administration, of course they are not the green administration, which you might expect from them. But if it comes to security of supplies, security of raw materials, independency, then of course, also our business case, also being maybe labeled recycling, is a super interesting business case because it's about securing raw material for their own economy in their country.

26:35So also from our point of view, the US is a super interesting market. And in the end, the result from work we do as a company, as our mission, it doesn't matter like what label I put on the story. In the end, it's about like how much tons can I recycle and how much volumes can I really recycle, and that makes a difference. And if it's like security of supply or the greenest business model, we don't care as long as we can do our job.

27:04Peter Pongracz: We've heard also these terms like being used interchangeably, right? The first one is energy security, green transition, etc., etc. Whatever you want to call it, it needs to make sense. And and and also what's popping up more often in these discussions as well, you know, the cybersecurity side of things, that you know, you want to have homegrown suppliers, homegrown hardware that people can't just turn off.

27:27And I think that's also something that we are going to see more of in the near future, right?

27:32Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Yeah, and uh I think also because you also mentioned it like this the storytelling, I think that people in Europe are really fed up with this green transformation. Like also, like if you label anything green, it it directly becomes a negative connotation. I don't know why, but it's like usually it's like huh, okay, it's costly. If we push this green approach here, then we have to like cut off this uh this other one over there.

27:58But if you like really change the narrative and talk about the opportunity, not like it's a green transformation and that is good for you, but saying, okay, if we build now this recycling line, we create, I don't know, 50 jobs and we secure x thousand tons of material going back into the value chain, creating value while lowering emissions, while recycling stuff.

28:21So it's not like we're doing that because it's green, we're doing that because it completely makes sense in the economy. And I think like if you really want to get people to acknowledge this kind of shift, you also have to very wisely, also from a political point of view, frame the story.

28:38Peter Pongracz: I think communication is everything. So both on the marketing side and also just the general you know education of the public as well, it goes a long, long way. Speaking of building different markets, what is the next step for you guys? What markets are interesting, or where are you guys looking into expanding into?

What markets is Solar Materials targeting for expansion?

28:57Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: So we know okay, we have been the historic installations. So it was in Europe, it's like Germany, it's uh Italy, you have in the Netherlands, interestingly, Spain, also UK, like as a top five uh European markets for us. Then when it comes to the global picture, besides Europe, US, Australia, Japan, India, of course, China, I cannot really say, okay, within six months we are here or 12 months we are there, because we are quite, on the one hand side, opportunistic driven to say, okay, if we want to move into one country, maybe it's Italy or Netherlands or I don't know, a lot of factors have to like click.

29:36It's like about the right partners, location, legislation, permitting, team. If everything is right in one of those countries I mentioned, we are ready to deploy our tech there. Right now we have very detailed discussions in terms of Italy, in terms of the UK, Japan, India, or the US. One of those, it will be within the next year. I can promise you that.

30:02Peter Pongracz: Oh, that's cool to hear. And uh when it comes to deploying the production or the production line, how does it work? How does that roll out?

30:11Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Depending on the partner setup, either we build our own line, we go to a location, secure the place, rent it out, or whatever, build our tech, get the permits, run uh the operations, or we go into a joint venture, or we try to find an operator, or we just license the tech, really depending on the different countries and what they're good at. So, for example, take Australia, super far away from us.

30:34So we have to manage a lot of like logistics in order to serve this market. So licensing our technology to a certain player in this market would be the right step right now. For Europe, it's close by, so it's easy for us to operate in. Just finding the right partners, then it's an operator model. Other markets where we want to have a little bit more control, maybe India, joint ventures, is is the right step.

30:58So, first of all, it's about like defining the right form, how to how to grow. And then on the other side, we said, okay, if we really want to have a significant market share, which means that by 2030, we would like to have 450,000 tons under, let's call it under management, either by license whatsoever. We need to work with partners. We need to rely on partners.

31:21So we need to license stuff, we need to look into operator models. We cannot build everything on our own. That would mean that we have to deploy hundreds of lines, and that's just not manageable. So in the end, for us, like scaling is all a question about finding the right partners.

31:36Peter Pongracz: So in terms of flexibility, you guys are flexible, but it has to make sense both in terms of country specificity and and and the business model as well.

31:44Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Unfortunately, there's not the perfect blueprint which would work all around the globe. Uh, if we would have that, that would be super super easy then to deploy. But you always have to adapt then to the to the market needs, and then we have to be flexible, but we also have then to take a decision to really say, okay, for Japan, JV, for I don't know, the decision that has needs to be taken, and then we can like speed up the process, look for the partners.

32:10Peter Pongracz: We were you know traveling a little bit around the globe, and obviously China is producing and installing the most solar, right? Are they also the biggest in recycling, or that's kind of on the back burner for them?

32:20Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: No. Um just to give you an example, there's a single entity in China which has the same solar portfolio than Germany, around 100 gigawatts, just one single entity. And of course, for them it's a business necessity, how to speak, to also look into the recycling. And they are per se the biggest solar panel recycling market around the job right now.

What does Solar Materials want from the industry and who are the key partners?

32:41Peter Pongracz: When it comes to the future for you guys for solar materials, what are the kind of discussions that you are looking to have, or who would you like to speak to in the industry?

32:52Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: The manufacturers of the panels, there is like if you really want to build a circular business model from solar into solar, we need to join forces also on that side, which means that we have to partner up with Chinese companies. So a really deep and trustful discussion with those players is crucial for what we want to build in the future. There are, of course, other manufacturers around the globe coming up.

33:16India is a new kind of solar powerhouse. Also, the US is now moving into the same direction when it comes to local production. So, like really building this kind of circular approach with the manufacturers, that's one of the crucial parts. And on the other side, you have all this last asset owners. So there are like this funds, pension funds, whatsoever.

33:36They invested into green energy, so they invested into solars, and they are sitting on the assets, and we can help them to turn this asset at the end of life again into money. So this is a huge opportunity to like rethink that it's not just liability, like it's a really profit center. And I think that are the two big groups which are crucified for our business model.

33:58Peter Pongracz: Yeah, indeed. And it makes sense to start kind of at the beginning of the story, right? So once you understand how it is made, then it's a little bit easier to deconstruct. And then then, of course, yes, the the financial side of things, if you layer that on top of it, because now we see in the industry that clearly, you know, the kind of standalone solar model is more or less dead, and everybody's looking into hybrid projects with BES or or Wind, etc.

34:23Also, the investors are being more cautious. So if you can add that extra cherry on top of the cake of okay, this is actually a project that has been recycled completely or or X percentage, I think that could make a huge difference.

34:39Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Exactly. So there are many different layers when it comes like what is the what is the selling argument for the different stakeholders. I mean, if you are the asset owner, I can now make your promise. Instead of that, you have to put some cost to the end of life, you get some money from us back. So you increase the the profit of your of your portfolio of your of your investment.

34:59As an EPC or OM, I can help you win the project because your recycling costs when you build a revamp a park would are lower than the competition because you get money from us. You can make the best offer to your client, which is the asset owner. I can help you to secure some of the strategic materials you need from your panels. We can really like make that a source of material stream for your for your business as well while being fully compliant.

35:24And I think that's that's also the the fun part on the job which I have on now. It's like really we can deliver real value to the customers. And it's like for every stakeholder, there's something in it.

35:37Peter Pongracz: What was the the biggest lesson that you learned this journey? Because it's quite a multifaceted, multi-industry, almost, multi-country. What would you you tell yourself back in the past if you had known?

35:51Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Independent on how good your plan is, there's always a reality which is different. Story. You have this ideal picture in your head saying, yeah, this is a process, this is a feedstock, and then everything will run smoothly. But then reality comes around and says, No, my friend, that's not the case. So you have to acknowledge that of course you need this kind of ideal plan, but you have to then face and check with the reality, like how to adopt.

36:16Do you quickly need to adopt? So you need the flexibility in your business model, in your partner search, in your technology approach, like really shift when you think it's necessary to shift. In the startup world, you would call it like pivoting. That's not the right word here, but it's like also just if I have developed this technology, and then if there's something else which is more beneficial, yeah, try to adapt that because then it gives you an edge again with competition.

36:45So really this flexibility and the alignment with reality.

What was the biggest lesson learned building Solar Materials?

36:51Peter Pongracz: Yeah, that's that's something that many founders go wrong with, right? So if it's misaligned with reality, sometimes you need to be able to call it a day and you know, pivot from the baby that you had already built from, and then you need to move on to a different type of business model. And that's quite difficult for people to do because, of course, you are always emotionally attached to your work as well.

37:13So it's a very important entrepreneurial lesson, so to speak.

37:17Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: The mission of the company is still the same: recycling solar panels. But I do not care like how on the way, if I have to adapt like technologies or whatsoever, like I just have to make it work. And this is also what our investors want to see. They want to see that our business model is working, that we make money with it. And then it's not about the last percentage, it's about like does the business model also scale and function on a global scale?

37:39And so as long as we can prove that, and as long as we can really show, okay, we have some traction here. And as a German engineer, I can say it like we tend to build things up to 100%, but usually the market doesn't need 100%. They need this like 80% solution fixing a problem, and then you're good to go and deploy it. The software guys are much quicker in acknowledging that, like releasing a software beta version and then something else to fix the bug.

38:05Same concept here, just try out stuff, and then if you're not working, through it over and start again. Of course, it's a little bit more costly for hardware, but it's not like you have to invent the reel again and again.

38:15Peter Pongracz: Yeah, I mean, deep tech is uh a little bit more difficult than software for sure, but there are some key lessons that could be taken from one to the other and vice versa as well.

38:24Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Absolutely. And I think like this flexibility you need and also on the team side, it's always a people's game. It's always about like you have to have the right people on your bus, on your team. You make business not with a with a faceless company. There is always sitting somebody else on the other side of the table, which you have to understand, and we can build a bond and a bridge with.

38:45So, like, really acknowledge that there are people you're doing business with and not like faceless entities. And then that also helps like building finding compromise. Yeah, just figuring out okay, what is really your motivation? What do you really need? What do you really want? And if I understand what you want, I can try to adapt my offer to this need.

What is the company culture that drives Solar Materials forward?

39:03Peter Pongracz: And what is your kind of company culture like? What differentiates you from other companies, for example?

39:10Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: One thing that we've learned is that also as a founding team and as a founder's, you you cannot do everything on your own. And you have to let things go, and you have to give people the freedom to work the way they like to work until they deliver the results. So I would say we are very much result-oriented. So everything we do is like based on there's a certain milestone or our goal or whatever for half a year or one year, I don't know.

39:39But they have this, like they have this milestone, and this is their driving force. And then they have all the resources, what they need, and we try to give them all the resources that they need in order to deliver them the results. So everything else is up to them. We try to intervene as less as possible. And I think this level of freedom, of course, for some people is challenging.

40:00I acknowledge that. But for the right people, it's the motivation to say, okay, I've I've the trust of the founders, of the management to deliver. And of course, they must deliver, but it's also about being flexible and open to experiment. So when you do experiments, you will have some failures. That's true, but you have to learn from the failures, and that's the important part here.

40:23Being fast, being driven by this kind of explorative will, and then just try to get to the next phase. And that's what drives the people and how we manage also with the team.

40:39Peter Pongracz: If you had to give one final shout out to the audience, who would you like to connect with in the industry? Who would you like to speak to? Hopefully, from the the audience here.

40:48Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: I would say that I know it's a cliche, and I know it's not directly related to the industry, but I think that people like Elon Musk. I'm sorry to to mention the name here. I'm not sure if he will listen ever to your podcast, but um let's let's send him a link. But I think that he has this global uh he has this this this goal above everything else, which like is his guiding principle.

41:13He also is engaged in solar, yeah, right? So he also has solar city as a part of his portfolio. And he also knows that if you want to go to space, you need solar power at some point. There's also a research community behind solar and space, which is also one of the only activities we have. So I think having this really, really huge view on how the civilization or the planet could look like 50 years from now on.

41:39It's hard for me to find people with this long view on the terms of like where we want to go. I would be keen just to to explore this idea. And I think he also framed a term which is then the solar powered society, which we are venturing in. And um, solar is uh still still a young industry, so there will be still a lot of years to come with enormous growth.

42:03And that's also again coming back to us and Europe, the biggest opportunity we now have for at least this decade.

42:11Peter Pongracz: Yeah, for sure. But that's uh that's a perfect concluding thought. So, Jeffy, thank you very much for your time and and for sharing your knowledge. I I can't wait to see you in person in a couple of weeks as well in Munich. Any final thoughts that we haven't covered?

42:24Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Just an invitation to also your audience to join Titasolar and to also join our booth there. And on the on June 24th, there will be a small celebration at our booth where I also invite you to ask for others um just to join us and to to connect with players along the along the value chain because it's like about the stakeholders and people behind.

42:45Peter Pongracz: Excellent. I I'll be there for sure. I can never say no to a free beer.

42:50Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Note it, and I will take extra care.

42:53Peter Pongracz: Perfect. Thank you very much, and uh see you soon.

42:56Dr. Jan-Philipp Mai: Thank you, Peter, and joy, and see you at least in Munich.